learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
- Joined: Aug 7th, 2007
- Posts: 18
I am trying to learn Putonghua in my spare time, and unfortunately I don't have time to take classes. I want to ask how many of you have also learned (or tried to learn) the language without taking classes? What techniques have you used and what have you found most helpful?
I am currently living in Beijing, and I would optimistically rate my speaking level as low-low-intermediate or upper-beginner. Still, my ability is poor enough that I often find myself falling back on asking, "ni hui shuo yingwen ma?"
I want to kick my language learning to the next level (but still, without classes), so I'm basically asking for advice from those of you who have gone this route.
Thanks!
KZ
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
Dude , you are in CHina, just walk on street , talk with people who seems casual or just goof around... as far as I know, most Chinese people will be friendly to laowai, you can do just like ask the direction, or go to a gorcery to buy a gum , all ways you can talk...
Maybe someone will rebut me on this.
But this will be what I do if I am in a foreign country.
Good luck.
Bottlenecking
jamhnxx
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
a 250 wants to learn putonghua, is that some kind of joke??
anyhow, getting an extra local lover would def help. jk
Niennah wrote:
250
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
Of course it's not a joke! :evil: If you were an 250 too, would you want people telling you that you can't learn other languages? And, being an 250, it's tougher for me to pick up lovers--anyway, I wouldn't want to use somebody like that.
@KZ: I forgot to mention that talking to people is my main way of learning these days. I do have some books on the language, but mostly I just practice by muttering some phrases that I've heard others say, then trying to remember what people say to me in response. Actually, although it may be slow and often embarassing, I think it's the way to get the most native-like speech!
KZ
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
Good for you ,keep this way, you will improve fast, but maybe try more talk to people who speak standard putonghua....having said that, I think most Chinese people will try to speak slowly or standard if a foreigner talk to them with not very fluent Chinese... :roll:
Dont feel embarassing, you are talking another language, no body except jerks will laugh at you
Bottlenecking
shizo
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
Next time you go to do something outside (shopping, buying electricity, finding a post office, etc.) do it all in Chinese. You must prepare your "topic" before you go out though.
So for example you need to go buy some meat. Before you go out, write down these words and phrases:
- Pork, beef, mutton, chicken and duck.
- Is it fresh?
- This has too much fat / bones.
- Which piece is best for..
- Fry, stir-fry, boil
Write all the words you think you're going to use on paper. It's best to play back the situation in your head so you get all the possible combinations of questions and answers. Then just use the paper a couple times and next time you'll remember it without paper. Best way to learn the language is by using it in a real situation.
PS: What is 250?
It's better to be nice, kind, generous, friendly, helpful, sexy and rich than to be obnoxious, scary, stinky, stingy, lonely and poor.
250
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
Thanks Shizo! As simple as that technique sounds, I haven't been doing it. I will start right away.
Any recommendations on a paper or online dictionary to use? The only snag I can forsee is that my current dictionary often seems to have everything except the commonly used words for things.
ancicamila
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
If you'rerefering to jamhnxxx's post it's chinese slang for a fool. er bai wu means fool for some reason.
Maybe a Chinese person could explain why?
Ceterum censeo Carthaginem esse delendam.
250
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
I heard about it a long time ago, so I'm not sure how clear my memory is. Some scholars used to refer to themselves as 500, which is half of 1000 (equivalent to some common monitary unit). They called themselves 500 in an attempt to be modest about their learning level, saying they were lower than a full unit. More recently, 500 got cut in half to refer to people of truly low intelligence. I think 250 just means someone of low intelligence, not necessarily a fool. Anyway, whether I'm a fool or a retard, I'm not really clear on the etymology of "250"... I could be wrong about about the details.
KZ
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
In qingdao, 250 means ban biaozi , semi-retard.
Bottlenecking
shizo
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
You're right, since you don't have a teacher who can explain things to you, a good dictionary/phrase book is essential.
As far as phrase books, this one is what i used at the beginning. It's very compact and fun to read! I think you can get it at Wangfujing or Xidan, but make sure it's the version with real Pinyin and not the crappy phonetic transliteration.
For the internet stuff i've created a topic. Check it out: Learning Chinese online resources.
It's better to be nice, kind, generous, friendly, helpful, sexy and rich than to be obnoxious, scary, stinky, stingy, lonely and poor.
hongmei
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
I first lived in China in the 1980s. As you can imagine, very few people spoke English at that time. I didn't have a teacher and there weren't any textbooks where i was. I taught myself very much in the way Shizo describes. I also wrote down words and phrases I heard regularly and looked them up in a dictionary. That way, everything I learnt was useful. I learnt so much more in those two years than I have this time round with a teacher and a textbook. You do have to be very self-disciplined though.
Oh yes, and try chinesepod.com. It's brilliant
250
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
Thanks again Shizo, I will look into that book.
One other question for you or anyone else who has learned Chinese by themselves: Are you satisfied with the results you've had? Or, do you ever regret that you didn't go through formal study of the language? Sometimes I wonder if, 15 or 20 years from now, I'll kick myself for not having put in the extra cash and time for a formal course...
@hongmei: I have downloaded a few ChinesePod mp3s. It really is great!
Jimmyjangles
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
In my opinion you should do a formal course for at least six months to get your feet wet...after that and with discipline you are at the stage where you can study yourself...
The CIA (no less!) reckon 600 hours of expert instruction is enough for simple languages! Double for complex ones!!! I've met so many self-studiers in my time...some with self-discipline and Chinese...some without either...if you've the discipline go for it...but if not give yourself a start at least by going back to skool!
All great civilizations have been based on loitering. -Jean Renoir
Jimmyjangles
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
What are peoples ideas on studying pinyin alone instead of characters? I started on pinyin but with so many similar sounding characters I feel it is essential to learn the characters...anyone who doesn't learn to read and write is...pfff!
All great civilizations have been based on loitering. -Jean Renoir
shizo
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
It's really up to you how you learn. The main goal is to have as much practice as possible speaking the language. Really, you have to decide what your goal is in learning Chinese and then go for it. I can't tell you how to do it, i can only encourage you to reach your goal.
It's better to be nice, kind, generous, friendly, helpful, sexy and rich than to be obnoxious, scary, stinky, stingy, lonely and poor.
250
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
I still have yet to figure out what is a complex language and what is a simple one. I hear that Chinese is complex, but I don't think the spoken language is all that hard. For me, it's just the damn characters that make learning more difficult than, say, Spanish. And in response to your second post, I think it is necessary to learn the characters for this reason. The only people I know who say it isn't necessary are those who only speak a little Chinese haven't yet learned characters.
theman
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
The way I did it was to get a chinese teacher. Private. Im not saying an expert, but if you put up an ad you'll have a choice of a few and you choose the best one. I would pay 20 yuan per hour. If you live at wudaokou, it could even be 15. Just put an ad in the classifieds saying you want a teacher in your area for 20 yuan, private lessons. Its not expensive but sitting down and really learning new words instead of just repeated the same ones really helps.
I know you didnt want classes, but this is a good way. A teahcer with a lot of free time could just meet you whenever your free.
I don't like your signature.
spettro9
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
I would say that self learning is not only possible, it is necessary
1. Shizo is right, do your business or errands when possible in Chinese,
of course usually this is necessary anyway...
and like he said prepare some necessary vocabulary beforehand, and learn each word thoroughly
- and like he said, get a good solid fat dictionary, the Oxford one for sale in UK and US is really really good, the Oxfordones for sale here are ok too i think,
- also get a good little Mandarin phrasebook like from Lonely Planet or Rough Guide, it should have topics, a concise dictionary and lots of explanations, including one on pronunciation
- Powerword, a computer program Chinese Dictionary, very good,
you can look up English, Pinyin, or by radicals
2. JimmyJangles is right, you need to start learning the written Chinese characters as soon as you are pretty comfortable with pinyin or sooner, it will make the memorization and learning of the grammar and logic much simpler...
when learning them, start with the 200 or so radicals (the elements that all the characters are made from),
3. Keith is right, practice with people who do not speak English.... this is really important...
at my old school, I used to always just sit and talk with whoever BaoAn (保安 Security Guards) were at the front gate, they were around my age and knew not much English, I was lucky to have them to talk to...
PM me, I can help you more if you want, especially with pronunciation and learning characters
and 250 means fool because it is supposed to mean you were born prematurely, ie if 9 months = 9 x 30 = 270 days, you are supposedly not fully developed... kinda stupid joke actually, nonetheless 250 has it's associated meaning, i think it's said "er bai wu", so you can say "liang bai wu" to not have that negative connotation when not needed,
What China really needs:
- Bill Nye, "the Science Guy", to come teach them basic Science.
- Jared Diamond, Dan Brown, and Spencer Wells to teach them about world/human history.
- MLK and Gandhi and Einstein to teach them about what being human means.
lodgerly
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
totally agree what he said!
anyway,i'm sure ur chinese will be much better soon,coz u live in china.and there r too many ways to learn chinese.i met a jersey lady in ri tan park a couple of days ago,she told me she forced herself to speak chinese on phone coz she need to change the water bucket.
anyway,she is so cute when she told me the story.haha
Show Oligarch
250
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
@theMan: I didn't realize a tutor could be so cheap. If I can find somebody with such a flexible schedule, I may look into that!
@spettro9: Thanks for your tips. I don't have PowerWord (is it available for Linux?), but I have something else called Stardic, and another really cool flashcard/dictionary program called Zhongwhen ZDT Langauge Learner. And another program called Hanzim, which sounds somewhat similar to PowerWord.
This is my favorite way to practice; find somebody who speaks no English and chat with them. Usually they're super suprised at first that you want to talk with them. Then they become gushingly friendly. Actually, I look forward to having better language skills so I can have better conversations with fun people like these.
I find that there's a few variations of the etymology of this term. Here's another version of the story that I found on Wikipedia (which means that it's not necessarily correct):
I don't mind if it has a bad meaning or not. At least nobody will have unrealistically high expectations of me!
Pirschjaeger
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
I know I'll get flamed for this but I'll offer my 2 cents anyway.
There is a common misconception that you need to live in a country that speaks the language you want to learn. This is wrong and fairly easy to explain.
First, we have to realize that it is the sub-conscious that learns the language and the conscious that uses it. Language is almost entirely skill and actually very little knowledge in comparison. As with any skill, the brain needs repetition in order to form the synaptic connections between the neurons. This is a physical change and like all physical changes, they require time.
I think it's important to have a basic understanding of how synaptic connections are formed. Neurons on their own are basically useless but when two connect, they begin to communicate. The connections in the human brain can be anywhere from 2 to 10,000. Neurons have "arms" that reach out for other neurons when we begin to learn something. When 2 neural "arms" connect the don't actually touch. They release and receive, exchange chemical packages that include the specs for the electrical signals that travel through the neural net. But what's important in learning is that these connections are temporary unless kept together by consistent usage. The brain is very efficient. Although we create millions of connections daily, we only keep some of them. By using repetition the necessary connections stay together. If together long enough, a sheath will form over the connect thereby holding the connection. A good example is vocabulary. By repeatedly using a word a connection is held together until the synaptic sheath can form. This is why you can learn 5 new words today but can't remember them all tomorrow. The best way to form the connection that gives you a word is by using it, not by reciting it. Since the connection is physical, you need to use it at least 4 times in different occasions.
Having said that, it's somewhat obvious why living in China doesn't help you learn Chinese as much as everyone assumes. The specific points of language are not repeated enough to hold the connections together in order to form the synapse. This is where you have to take matters into your own hands and control your language environment. Got an mp3?
Going back a little to an earlier point, language is learnt by the sub-conscious and not the conscious. Another common misconception is that you need to concentrate when improving your listening comprehension. Concentration actually blocks your subconscious from learning the required skills. The brain only has so much energy and by concentrating you are diverting valuable energy from your subconscious to your conscious.
Side note: oral language can be divided into two basic subgroups, listening and speaking. Listening is much more important than speaking as the speaking ability is directly related and dependent on your listening abilities.
Having said that, the study method is very important. Being that our ability to understand grammar is instinctual, you need to tap into that instinct and basically trust your feelings, the same way you do in your native language. Load some Chinese tracks (not music) onto your mp3 and carry it everywhere. Hear, not listen, to those tracks repeatedly, at least 10 times. DO NOT concentrate; your subconscious will do that for you. Give yourself a little time to let the synaptic connections form.
I have to run to class but I will be back later to post more.
To the flamers, before you flame and insult me, try to prove me wrong first.
Pirschjaeger
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
Anticipation Factor
People often overlook or misunderstand the anticipation factor. When speaking face to face, in your native tongue, we generally need 1/20th of a second to anticipate what the other person is going to say. Next time you are in a face to face discussion, take note of the body language. It happens just before the words are spoken. This greatly increases our ability anticipate what the other person is about to say. This is why speaking with someone on the telephone is in many ways limited and not as efficient as face to face.
When learning a new language, we need much more time to anticipate what is about to be said. This is why we have to ask people to slow their speech. It is also the reason word chunking is an integral part of learning language. Word chunking helps to cut the anticipation factor.
By hearing a controlled language environment, such as repeating speech tracks on an mp3, we start to recognize word chunks. In times where you cannot use an mp3, such as the office, it is also good to imagine a conversation in the language you are learning, using the grammar and vocabulary you already know. This helps to support the forming synaptic connections and therefore cuts the anticipation time.
An important point; don't study too hard. You should have one day a week where you totally avoid the language you are learning. The reason is simple. The processes needed to construct the sheath that holds the synapse in place are basically the same as those processes used to repair muscle tissue after exercise. Your brain needs a rest to complete the physical processes just as your muscle tissue needs rest to repair and grow. People often study to hard and feel mentally exhausted and therefore lose interest. When you have this feeling, it is your brains way of telling you to take a break. If you push yourself to continue studying, you'll make very little gain.
shizo
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
I noticed that people tend to talk more about the best way of learning rather than actually learning the language.
It's the same with sports and martial arts. People have huge online debates about what's better, static, dynamic, or pseudo-cybernetic weight lifting. And then it turns out the wisest teachers are the skinny geeks who spend all day online and never train.
You have enough advice here to last you about 4 college semesters, now get to work.
It's better to be nice, kind, generous, friendly, helpful, sexy and rich than to be obnoxious, scary, stinky, stingy, lonely and poor.
henry
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
Listen to www.chinesepod.com in your Ipod.
"Infamy, Infamy, they've all got it in for me."
Alexs1: "The most basic rule on earth: things change!"
Pirschjaeger
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
I've already studied two foreign languages and plan to study more in the future but I have an important project I'm working on.
Dutch is next!
250
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
I'm on on it, sarge! ...but still interested to hear what techniques others have used (anyone?).
Pirschjaeger
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
All the methods mentioned are good and aspect specific. Do them all!
ivenwithnothin
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
Couldn't agree more, although I'm "hard hearing" myself
=========
OMG, this is my virgin post
Beijing_Brummi
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
Pimsleur chinese/mandarin oral course.
You can download it off ares or any other filesharing system.
thats how Im learning... fair play you need to be really really willing to learn else you will give up after a while like Ive started doing.. but once you get into it, its a fun way to learn...
I'm doing it this way as I got sick of dickhead tutors who don't know their arses from their elbows trying to teach me in their complex ways
Only disadvantage is that you dont get to see how it is written - you have to second guess... so you become fluent speaking, but have no idea how to write pinyin.. which is a bit pointless.. but meh.
good luck anyway eh
Whatever you think, think the opposite.
shellyuan
Re: learning putonghua without taking classes - advice?
I don't think you don't have time, maybe that's true, because you can't change your schedule to meet the class time, but why don't you choose on-line Chinese learning class? You should have known if you want to learn, there will be some ways, especially you are in China. Besides, it's really hard to just learn by yourself when you don't master the basic of the language.