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FE cert 5 year limit?

Hi, I’ve been working at my school for over 6 years now and the last time I went home (UK) was in 2006.
The school has arranged Foreign Expert’s Certificates and Z visas for me with no unusual problems every year.
I had to renew again in December and the school said that they could only get me another FE certificate until 30th July 2011 (and so a visa with the same date) because I haven’t been out of China since August 2006. They say "It’s something to do with not being out of the country for 5 years".
Does anyone know if this is a rule, or if I will need to go home, or only to HK?
Any input / experience / ideas about the situation would be appreciated, because the school won’t see it as a problem until the day before the next renewal.

Thanks in advance for any help

Alan


Re: FE cert 5 year limit?

Ithink you needn't leave china ,and can extend it your visa here.i think you can extend it for a year,not just until July of 2011.You can see the business lisence of the school,and see its expiring date .

Good luck

amandawei2011@gmail.com
tel:152102505421

just go for what i belive in totally !come on

Re: FE cert 5 year limit?

After remaining in China for more than 5 years you are no longer a foreign expert, but a Chinese one.
You can however apply for a Foreign Obsolete Certificate.

China has more pigs than America has people.

Re: FE cert 5 year limit?

Thanks for your input guys, anyone else heard of this problem?

As for becoming a Chinese expert....... Rolling On The Floor

Later guys

Alan

Re: FE cert 5 year limit?

Ignore visa touts like tiffany above, they don't understand the underlying issue.

But I do--it has to do with foreigner taxation (IIT-individual income tax), and I'll oversimplify a bit. Basically, when you are a resident foreigner working legitimately (work permit or FEC), you are subject to taxation on all your China-sourced income (China job, income from renting a China property, etc.). After 5 years, Chinese law makes a resident foreigner subject to Chinese IIT taxation on their worldwide income, which gets into another level of complexity. That you and your employer won't want to get into. This is why your employer is only willing to get/keep you legal up to the 5 year time limit, which is this coming summer. (2006-2011)

Most expats--especially corporate people on larger salaries and with income from other sources outside China--know about this and avoid being here more than 5 years continuously. How do you do this? Well, Chinese law on this actually makes it easy to do--what you need to do is either:
(a) Leave the PRC for 30+ full days continuously in any calendar year...excluding the travel days in/out of the country. Continuous means just that--leave for a month plus and don't come back til after that; or
(b) Be out of the PRC for 90+ days cumulatively in any calendar year...also excluding travel days. The 90+ days can be done in pieces.

Either of these maneuvers in effect, breaks the Chinese legal definition of "continuous residence" and resets your taxation clock basis back to Year 1. Quirky, but I've done it a couple of times with my last "reset" in 2008. You can go anywhere you wish for your temporary exile, as long as it is outside the PRC.

It's actually best to do this reset before getting to the very end of the 5 year period, as you are about to find out. This is so that you can get a renewed work permit/FEC/residence permit without having a complete break in your paperwork. If you get to the end of your current visa/permits and then leave the country for your exile, you may have to jump through all the employment hoops again (medical, etc), just as if you were a new expat arriving for the first time. Unless your school/organization has some kick-ass guanxi and can shortcut some of the usual process. My practical suggestion is to work with your school to see if you can take an extended Chinese New Year holiday--maybe find a substitute short-termer to take your place for days you'll miss. They might be willing to do this, especially if you and your school hit it off well, they want to keep you, and you want to continue on with them beyond the summer.

If you can manage to do that 30+ day exile, then come back and they should be able to do a normal 12 month renewal of all permits and FEC at any time after your return. If your intention is NOT to continue on with them but come back to China, then you might wish to just leave things alone, leave when your contract/paperwork expires, stay out 30+ days on a natural holiday, then return and jump through the usual hoops with a new employer. In this case, you might want to get a new position under contract before you leave your current one, and from the new employer, get the paperwork needed to get a Z visa in HK (or elsewhere), which you'll use on your return to China at end of summer. Don't forget that release letter from your current employer, get it before you leave.

Re: FE cert 5 year limit?

Wow bigsisjiejie,
That's the kind of answer I was looking for. I knew there was something up, but I just didn't know what.

I hope you don't take any offence, but although you're reply makes tons of sense, I'm kind of reluctant to just take "a forum post" as gospel. Can you point me in the direction of any official websites on the matter, or may I ask how you know this stuff?

Thanks VERY VERY VERY much for your post, and if you have any pointers (above),thank you VERY VERY VERY much in advance.

Alan

Re: FE cert 5 year limit?

So I had a discussion with the school this morning, and they said that another visa wouldn't be a problem because I'm married to a Chinese woman.
I then went through the details of bigsisjiejie's post, and they said 'Oh well, you can have a longer holiday at Spring Festival'.
So I've just phoned my wife (who also phoned the school) and she said that I didn't have to leave China because we're married.
Personally I think if bigsisjiejie's post is correct, what difference does it make if I'm married or not?

Ideas on how to proceed? What official could I speak to? What website could I look at? Help, this is driving me mad At Wits End

A very confused Alan

Re: FE cert 5 year limit?

No problem on wanting additional evidence. You can find out more about this on various accounting companies websites, such as Deloitte, Pricewaterhouse, etc. One such example is Dezan Shira's, see link and especially the third paragraph. This information is still valid for 2011.

http://www.china-briefing.com/news/2010/01/12/expatriate-income-tax-plan...

Your wife is incorrect if she is expecting that you will be exempt from the taxation rules because of marriage. The issue is your foreign passport and your tax residence status, not your marital status. If you do not "break" the 5 year period--your tax residency will become China rather than the current not-China, and I suggest you not get to that point. There's no other way for you to break except physically leave for a spell.

As to another visa--well, as the spouse of a Chinese citizen, yes you can get a visa (L-type) but while that would allow you to stay in China continuously and even have multiple exit/entry privileges during the visa validity, this visa status doesn't come with right-to-work privileges. So, you will still need to find a way on your own merits to keep (or get a new) work permit or FEC if you want to be legally employed. Which goes back to the suggestions in my first response. It sounds encouraging that they will let you have an extended time off over Spring Festival to deal with this--go over it again with them and get it in writing, along with details of how you will cover your contractual obligations while you are "missing class." I assume this all means you want to stay with this school beyond this summer. You and wife may have to figure out a plan to deal with a temporary physical separation--meet up in HK or Vietnam or somewhere. How about a getaway in Thailand where she joins you for a week?

Re: FE cert 5 year limit?

1wabit1 wrote:
So I had a discussion with the school this morning, and they said that another visa wouldn't be a problem because I'm married to a Chinese woman.
I then went through the details of bigsisjiejie's post, and they said 'Oh well, you can have a longer holiday at Spring Festival'.
So I've just phoned my wife (who also phoned the school) and she said that I didn't have to leave China because we're married.
Personally I think if bigsisjiejie's post is correct, what difference does it make if I'm married or not?

Ideas on how to proceed? What official could I speak to? What website could I look at? Help, this is driving me mad At Wits End

A very confused Alan

This issue isn't a PSB Entry & Exit Administration issue, but something your school is imposing on you. The PSB doesn't care about your tax issues and if you are willing to subject yourself to total Chinese taxation on your worldwide income, then so be it.

First of all, the only thing you'd have to worry about is if you have income abroad subject to Chinese taxation. If you do, then you have to consider how the heck the Chinese tax authorities would even know. If you are, for example, a US citizen, it is virtually impossible the IRS would share any tax data with Chinese authorities. Of course, you can declare the income if you want, but if you do not the risk is virtually nonexistent.

If your school is willing to give you 30 days off and you can find somehwere outside of China to spend them, maybe it saves you a little hassle. But if your school is willing to process your visa in spite of not leaving for 30 days, you have very, very little to worry about.

I find it amusing, but not surprising, that Dezan Shira would state:

Quote:
At some point, when an individual’s stay in China ends, they will have to reconcile with the authorities over their income. Immigration records, visa type and length of stay information are shared between the immigration authorities and the tax bureau.

That statement is false, as is much of what comes from those morons. They make it sound like when you leave China you will be given the third degree over tax issues and it simply will virtually never happen -- especially in your situation.

"Truth is not a commodity in short supply: The problem is, there's very little demand for it." -- ???

Re: FE cert 5 year limit?

Thanks for all the help, support and advice guys.

The situation as it stands:

I am more worried about the tax implications than the visa

I have emailed the HR department of the main school and made my concerns clear. I am awaiting their reply and will let you all know how it goes.

If they think it’s best, I’ll leave for the 30 days and try to make it somewhere cheap. I have been fretting over Bigsisjiejie’s posts, but maybe plans can be adjusted to make that side of it irrelevant.

If the school thinks it best, I’ll find somewhere warm and cheap and go there for 30 days.

Thanks again for all your support

Alan

Re: FE cert 5 year limit?

The school contacted me today and said there was nothing to worry about regarding a new visa in the summer, or the tax. So, I'm not going to leave China for 30 days, but I've learned a lot along the way.

I could go into details, but hey, this is a public forum

Thanks again for all your help and support guys.

All the best for the upcoming holiday. Have a good one.

Alan

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