Jesus Camp
- Joined: Jun 24th, 2011
- Posts: 615
www.youtube.com/watch?v=LACyLTsH4ac
Let me tell you something about Harry Potter . . . . Warlocks are Enemies of God!!!
Would like to see the whole film but cant find it at any of the usual places. From the clip above, the term "brainwashing" does not reflect the seriousness of this in terms of th emotional and psycholigcal damage done to children. To my eyes this is worse than the brainwashing that Chinese kids are subjected to in school. At least there's nothing as emotionally damaging as this in Chinese schools.
And at least if and when kids in China grow up and see through the propaganda they get in school they won't fear that they're going to go to hell. Sure, Jesus camp is not mandatory, but if its legal it sends the message that its ok.
FreeRadical
Re: Jesus Camp
Its all brainwash.
STFU already...
walls
Re: Jesus Camp
I didn't watch the link but isn't there a difference between forced information and a choice of receiving information? If you don't think so then I fear your idea of liberty.
I love my planet Vulcan. I'm proud of being a Vulcan in the universe.
cameron326
Re: Jesus Camp
I reckon you might want to watch the video first before "fearing for my idea of liberty".
Your post would have been better like this:
Anyway, I don't think those five and six year old kids in the video made "a choice of receiving information" as you put it. I don't think those little kids thought "you know I'd really like to go to Jesus Camp this summer to hear some nut label me a sinner and tell me how all my fellow playmates are going to hell and about the decline and corruption of western society".
What do you reckon, Einstein? Or is f-ing with kids minds ok with you as long as its done by a Westerner?
walls
Re: Jesus Camp
I heard about the video from numerous people in the past. I just didn't want to bother with watching it. I generally knew what it was about.
I never said it was okay and I doubt it represents a huge amount of people in the population. It is also good to show the truth of this camp or any group, if that is what this film is doing. There is still a difference between a certain group of people within a larger group doing this and an entire nation doing this to its people.
"f-ing with kids minds" as you put it, of course is a problem but people can expose the badness in a generally free society of what this camp might be doing. Exposing a nations forced brainwashing or whatever, I am sure will be more problematic. Understand?
Westerner or not doesn't mean anything here. I never brought that up so I am not sure why you did.
You can make your comment without calling me Einstein. If you felt offended by anything I said I will apologize.
I love my planet Vulcan. I'm proud of being a Vulcan in the universe.
FreeRadical
Re: Jesus Camp
Exposing the "brainwashing" as opposed to identifying the "types" of brainwashing is a whole other issue. These types of groups are soul murdering for children and should be exposed and prosecuted as far as Im concerned. That'll never happen in "christian" America though will it? It is worst than what is happening in Chinese schools.
STFU already...
blackgrey
Re: Jesus Camp
If can do one thing, would be great.
FreeRadical
Re: Jesus Camp
Be careful when and where you open your mouth like that...just sayin'
STFU already...
pnkearns
Re: Jesus Camp
Evangelists have kiddy camp where they preach the gospel? Oh my... I'm shocked. Oh, of course they also have their private schools where they teach "Jesus saves", and universities and...
Catholics have parochial schools and universities, catechism classes and ...
Jews have yeshivas and universities, and bar mitzvah training, and....
Mormons have whatever they have... including their encouraged 2 year missionary duty on bikes deal..
Every faith, pick any one, has the same rough structure with religious teachings starting in the first grades.
Now if you don't like the formal religions, I can lay out the same kiddie indoctrination with eco-kiddie camps for the families of eco-hippies. In CA/San Francisco, I can find a gay friendly kiddie care facility for gay couples with kids, as well as the public schools, being taught "Ben has 2 daddies".
So your problem with the video is really what?
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FreeRadical
Re: Jesus Camp
Its all good stuff there Pinky...no problem at all..great...send your kid there if your so "hip" on it...
P.S. read my post on identifying "types" of these brainwashings...and no... none of us are shocked...special interst groups abound. We are talking about the type that will emotionally scar children for life....a bit differnt than some of the crap taught out there....there is no condoning emotional and severe mental abuse on anybody ...
STFU already...
Herbz
Re: Jesus Camp
Soooo, who are we after on this thread, America or a marginal church with no name or higher proven statistics of "emotional and severe mental abuse"...?
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Monkey King
Re: Jesus Camp
I don't really understand who we're supposed to be attacking here either.
But surely the solution is to organize some kind of protest. Preferably one with a vague, undefined message.
That will bring "them" to their knees!
"China is a big country, inhabited by many Chinese."
--Charles de Gaulle
NewEnglandPats
Re: Jesus Camp
yes...down with the "emotional" and "severe" abuse so prevalent at the millions of religious camps in the US. oh wait...
Being from the northeast (a "Catholic" area) we all had to take part in Catholic classes, and very sparingly, camps. Not a single person that I either attended these things with, or, that I knew went to such a thing, would I call "abused" or "indoctrinated". going to go with pnkearns, herbie and monkey king here, don't exactly see the issue.
FreeRadical, you really make no sense, never have.
cameron326
Re: Jesus Camp
newenglandpats:
i suggest you watch the video with the crying, terrified kids before commenting. Thats what this topic is about.
If you dont call that abuse and indoctrination then i can only conclude your absolutely fine with the brainwashing that goes on in China's schools, because the video above is clearly much more severe.
NewEnglandPats
Re: Jesus Camp
Actually I've seen the movie, thanks
What I'm saying is that movie is a very very small representation of how a "Christian" camp is run, and may be just limited to just a few. I of course do not agree with these practices, along with most of the US population, but we also realize it is not a common phenomenon.
cameron326
Re: Jesus Camp
newenglandpat: oh ok, I apologize for inferring you hadnt seen the film and I accept that what is seen may be an extreme example.
However, on what grounds should these religious camps, even the moderate ones, be allowed at all?
It may be impossible to stop the indoctrination of chilren - what goes on at home is outside of the state's control and perhaps that is a good thing. But should society endorse organizations whose purpose is to indocrtrinate children with fantasies? Ok, as you say, the METHODS of other camps may not bbe so extreme, but the GOAL and effect is the same: to take the minds of curious, trusting children and fill them -not with facts or useful knowledge - but with religious fantasy. Why should these camps be permitted to make a profit indoctrinating children with nonsense and removing their right to think for themselves and be rational beings?
From the perspective of the child, the damage done is the same no matter whether the nonsense is being sold by the communist government or some religious groups. To be honest, I'm more concerned about the rights of children to be protected - as much as possible - against religious indoctriantion rather than the parents rights to express their religion through these groups.
If they want to attend themselves - fine. But leave the kids out of it until they are old enough to sign up themselves.
Herbz
Re: Jesus Camp
Do you think infants would choose to leave their parents every day for Kindergarten or children to school if such choices are left to them when they are "old enough"? Hardly strutting up to checkpoints with sticks of dynamite taped around their torsos...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jesus_Camp
it appears that they were unknowingly being manipulated by the directors in their effort to cast evangelical Christianity in an unflattering light.[8]
In November 2006, Fischer announced that she would be shutting down the camp due to negative reaction towards her in the film. According to Fischer's website, the owners of the property used for the camp shown in the film were concerned about vandalism to the premises following the film's release and thus will not allow it to be used for any future camps. Fischer has said that the camp will be indefinitely postponed until other suitable premises can be found, but it will be back
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cameron326
Re: Jesus Camp
er, kindergarten is therefore kids benefits so they lern useful skills and to think and behave rationally. The total opposite of Jesus Camp.
according to Christian organization Focus on the Family. Of course they dont have an agenda do they? Must try harder.
Criminal behaviour for which they should be punished. But how does this relate to the topic at hand again? Seems totally unrelated.
Your arguments are pretty flimsy I'm afraid - must try harder
Herbz
Re: Jesus Camp
Some of us aren't Police, judge and jury though.. if children have been reported abused then of course there should be an investigation and appropriate step taken, however... there hasn't been a complaint made and it appears that nobody is investigating a complaint...how can it be criminal behaviour?
As others have said, there's little groups of this and that everywhere... they can all be made to look sinister with wide shots of barren prairies and some gloomy music.
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walls
Re: Jesus Camp
You call it fantasy and expect everyone to follow that idea or else they are ignorant slobs. Right?
Be allowed? Be allowed by whom? The state? The people are to be over the state. Do you want the state over the people or you just want to the state over the people when it doesn't match with your ideology? All you can do is teach your children the way you want to.
I love my planet Vulcan. I'm proud of being a Vulcan in the universe.
FreeRadical
Re: Jesus Camp
Same with me...and that's all we are saying. End of story.
STFU already...
NewEnglandPats
Re: Jesus Camp
I'm not exactly sure what you're getting at here. It sounds like you're very anti-religion (through your assertion of the religious fantasy term and the claim that none of which are facts or useful knowledge), but who are you to tell someone, parents, a family, etc, what is valuable to them, what they, as a family or individual, can choose to believe and follow. I am not speaking as a believer by any means, since I follow no religion and do not support organized religion, however, I do not nullify its value in society when used in a positive, constructive manner (when used in a destructive manner it can create the opposite effect - see suicide bombers). Most religions actually do provide a good moral basis for society, and if individuals believe that these moral lessons and beliefs should be passed down to their children through the form of religion, then why exactly is it the state's duty to interfere with such a thing? As someone who grew up in the US and being exposed to this "goal of indoctrination" I can freely say that though this overarching "goal" of religion started at a young age, I was clearly able to differentiate my personal beliefs between those of the church as time passed. I, like many others, realized that religion was not for me, having been exposed to many other ideas that lead us down a different path.
There are many other things commonly seen in our every day lives that have the same goals - advertisements, media - to stimulate consumption, politically slanted news sources - aimed at stirring up emotions and gaining support...etc, etc. These influences are all around, and hopefully we have enough exposure to a multitude of resources to make our own, informed decisions on things.
Lastly, you say "should society endorse such organizations..?" Well, in the case of this film, society does NOT actually support such organizations(as evidenced by the backlash), along with most of the fringe organizations that use religion or belief systems in a more destructive manner. The ones they do support actually do provide some sort of decency to the community. If you look to see who does most of the charity work of the US, I'm sure you will find that religious organizations are near the top. So in the end, religion does have its place for people, and if you are not one of those people, so be it, but it is their freedom to choose so.
heres a quote I like by Brian Eno:
There is something I recognize about religion that us, evangelical atheists, haven’t really grappled with yet, which is that it gives people a chance to surrender. What religion says to you, essentially, is: you’re not in control. Now, that’s a very liberating idea.
cameron326
Re: Jesus Camp
Herbz
It obviously isn't illegal behaviour. However, it is pretty unethhical behaviour. What use is freedom of speech if you don't allow kids the freedom to think?
walls
My position is pretty clear: I think indoctrinating/ brainwashing children is wrong no matter who does it: be it government, church, or parents. It should be prevented as mic as possible.
governments shouldn't allow any religious schools or organizations that have as part of their aim indoctrination, ie brainwashing. If parents want to indoctrinate their kids in religion at home noone can stop them - but IMO society should promote curious and rational young people that prefer rational enquiry and logic to blind superstition.
Following your religion and worship is fine (although I'd rather children didn' attend until they're old enough to make up their OWN mind) Indoctrination of children at home is not fine - but there's nothing that ca be done about it. However that is not the case with these camps and religious schools.
blackgrey
Re: Jesus Camp
If can do one thing, would be great.
cameron326
Re: Jesus Camp
actually I'm not strongly anti-religion, although I think society would be better off without organized religion. Saying "religious fantasy" or whatvever doens mean I'm anti religion, I'm simply stating a fact - religios beliefs are, for the most part, pure fantasty. That is a simple fact.
Still, I say ADULTS should of course be free to practise their religion, but, as much as possible, CHILDREN should be left out of it and given a proper education. Is that really such a radical position?!
cameron326
Re: Jesus Camp
newenglandpats
you make some well-argued points, but I disagree. seeing commercial for Ford, Sony, and Gap doesn't really have the potential to influence my whole life does it? Even if I see hundres of them while I'm still a kid. A religious upbringing certainly does have the potential to fundamentally change your whole life. The fact is that a huge percentage of Christian,s Muslims, Hindus etc are Christians and Muslims, Hindus because thats how they were brought up.
Like you, I dabbled with religion myself at a young age, before giving it up after a couple of months. Fortunatly I was not pressured or coerced and had parents that let me develop - and drop interests as and when I felt like it. For millions of children this is not the case, and the pressure they receive from their local church, religious school etc makes the pressure to conform even greater.
blackgrey
Re: Jesus Camp
the kid has better have no religion when the kid is the kid . cuz society has bind their ideas, can not let religion control the their ideas again.
when we are old, our hope can rest on the religion maybe.
If can do one thing, would be great.
FreeRadical
Re: Jesus Camp
Everything you say is a "radical" position to many posters on here who have a different perspective than you.Religious endoctrination of young children in a radical way IS mental and emotional abuse. Suicide bombers are a testament to that. Little groups here and there???....I think there may be more going on in the world than people care to admit. Its quite obvious.
STFU already...
blackgrey
Re: Jesus Camp
the atmosphere of society and family can lead a kid to choose certain religion.
actually, sometimes kids don't know why they believe religion or what they believe.
If can do one thing, would be great.
Herbz
Re: Jesus Camp
You've gone from a slanted docu about a couple of kids to suicide bombers. That's like saying forks are used to kill people... without mentioning just how many or the billions of other people that use them every day to eat food.
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cameron326
Re: Jesus Camp
Here's a thought experiment.
Imagine if every year thousands of socialist/communist parents across the US decide to send their kids to "Chairman Mao Camp" (well, this is a china forum!).
They send ther kids to the camp becos they genuinely believe Mao was a great person and leader - the greatest leader in history.
At the camp the kids - ages 5-13 - will be taught, in a very persuasive way, that Mao was the greatest leader in history, that he saved billions of Chinese people by beating the japanese. The Great Famine and Cultural Revolution was 99% the fault of capitalist governments meddling, and wasnt Mao's fault. The reason many Americans dont agree with these facts is because they have been brainwashed. Hopefully one day the US will have a great communist leader like Mao.
The kids will also have some entertainment where they sing Mao songs, draw pictures of Mao, and make a giant Mao statue.
The camp leaders are very skilled and persuasive speakers, and the camp is really good fun. One thing though - if you ever doubt Chairman Mao you will go to hell.
Anyone have a problem with this camp, and if so on what grounds? Its freedom of belief and expression, surely, and if you dont like this camp, just don't send you kid there - simple.
Or how about a "Mr Burns" camp, where kids go to praise and worship Mr Burns from the Simpsons. Kids will be told he really existed and the should dedicate their whole life to the worship of Mr Burns. If they don't they will go to hell. Any problems?