Beijing Subway Fare Increase Proposals: Let Us Count the Ways

That is what I feel as well. And since Beijing apparently has the busiest subways in the world, they should not have trouble paying the bills every month with that.

alishinto wrote:

You two must be a riot at parties.

And you must be a very valuable source of ideas and creativity for companies or districts who are looking to improve how they operate their services. But hey, when is the company New Year's bash, whoohoo! I got the Jaeger jelly shots!

mtnerror wrote:

(Yawn) "Of course, the system only nets out that way because of low-interest loans from a Japanese development bank, with the remaining favorable financing from the state and national governments. The state supplies electricity for running the Delhi subway."

The state supplies electricity...which the subway systems pays for! At a rate that is higher than neighboring communities no less! That is why power accounts for 40% of the subway systems budget!

Which means they probably pay more for power than Beijing does. Imagine if they had an even lower energy bill.

mtnerror wrote:

Stop backing your claims with copy/pasting of Wikipedia blurbs, but instead go to the articles which are referenced and get the full picture, by people who write for a living. Once in a while you may run into someone in a forum who actually values journalism, reading more than a paragraph's worth, and putting forth arguments based on sound reason and supported by verifiable sources. It's plain to see you and I do not share this in common, and I would imagine that's why for you it's been much easier in life to smear "you can't read" than attempt objectivity.

Haha, more satirist humor. The copy and paste was from the article WHICH YOU REFERENCED for God's sake. Your own article says that the Delhi system receives ZERO, NADA, NO subsides from the government. All for an average fair less than Beijing's. They do it by managing the business better.

Whew, what a relief, it really IS BECAUSE YOU CAN"T READ! from the article that you actually linked to-in glaringly obvious words! (Maybe you can ask someone to draw pictures for you):

"It is one of the few subway systems in the world that is operationally profitable without government subsidies, thanks to revenue from advertising, property leases and parking fees, in addition to ticket sales. It racked up revenue of $100 million last fiscal year and profit before taxes of $3.98 million. Also, other Indian cities pay consulting fees to learn how to gain from Delhi Metro’s experience."

And the absolute maximum ticket fare is less than 3 yuan!

You really must be joking. Were you trying to make a point? Do you even know what is was? I wanted to draw big red lines under the sentence, without government subsides, and profitable, but then suddenly your gag hit me, you are a surrealist prankster. Good one!

I suggest: people who stand in line, don't push, smile, let the elderly and weak sit, don't spit, don't hide under the seat or harass others, who brush their theeth, maybe even whistle once in a while or tell their neighbour a joke or even do some knitting or... - well, add sth., be creative - they get a ride for free: not only in BJ, but all over China, in Asia, ah, why stop here, all over the world. All others have to pay - maybe 1 percent of their monthly income per ride, or the equal of a BigMac... ah, no, they should push the subway train so the city saves energy cost. Or maybe skip the subway trains, each who is supposed to pay has to carry one who doesn't have to on the back. So both reach their desired destination, one relaxed, one maybe not so. Or, hm, maybe those who... no, maybe not. Difficult.

Should thin people pay the same like fat ones? Little ones as much as tall ones? Track their phone to see how they use the subway system? Flip a coin? Tricky. Or move one district to Inner Mongolia so there is more space for others? But what if they need to... No. How about people stay at home, and their work is sent to them on the subway? Their shopping bags. Maybe confusing: "I didn't order lamb, I'm a vegetarian; and I am a consultant, not a painter. And: why is this sheep pink?". No, I'm afraid I have no answers, no solution, sorry for wasting your time, but thanks for reading anyways. Happy weekend.

@ Squid: you get to play mayor, or comptroller, or whatever you want for a day:

You are in charge of Sim City. Your city's citizens are taxed at XX rate, providing you with ¥100bil. However, one of the city's services (the subway) is running at a deficit, a deficit which is increasing. The man who served in this position, whom you have replaced, made the decision to keep the subway's fare structure at current levels. However, to remain solvent, stay in good standing with creditors, and continue to provide public services which your citizenry expects as a result of their paying taxes, choose which of the following you would reduce to allow the subway to operate with no changes but also to come in at budget:

A. Current operating budget: ¥20bil -- Water sourcing and treatment -- your townspeople are like all people on earth, in that they need it. Your city has few natural resources so it has devised a way to obtain such resources from nearby and faroff areas -- this comes at a great cost. The city's water supply and quality have already been rated low and population is forecasted to continue to exceed supply for foreseeable future. The public is becoming increasingly discont with the costs they are having to adopt in order to provide clean, potable water to their families.

B. ¥20bil -- Public eduation -- Outdated schools and facilities are impacting the young people (tomorrow's job seekers) of your city. In an ultra competitive global landscape and a soceity where parents value their children's education, your school board must continue to churn out well educated pupils or be left in the dust. Also, as your city continues to increase its standing in the world and attract employers (job provides who in turn pay taxes), a highly-educated workforce is necessary to be competetive for the future. Teachers have argued for higher wages.

C. ¥20bil -- Public health -- Diseases such as diabetes, cancer and dimentia are being deteceted at an alarming rate. Prevention, detection, and management of your citizenry who are afflicted are all necessary to the long-term sustainability of your city. Citizens expect new trends in health care and medicines and operating procedures to be increasingly available to them. As the city's population grows, so too do new hospitals need to be built. Hospital staff, recruitment, and teaching hospitals are searching for the best qualified professionals but low salary pay negatively impacts the ability to attract top top talent. Your citizenry is also aging at an advanced rate and limited number of offspring make any fees passed on to the next generation very hard to deal with and gives immense pressure to your municipal gov't as a whole.

D. ¥20bil -- Environmental protection & food safety-- With so much manufacturing and construction ongoing, your city must invest in substantial environmenal protection forces. Your citizens have expressed discontent in the growing number of food scandals taking place in their city and are worried about the quality of food. Citizens have also expressed discontent over your city's air and water quality, and both are having an impact on tourism and adding to public health costs. The hospitality industry is looking for these problems to be resolved or forced to make changes to their operating models. The tourism industry employs X,XXX,XXX of citizens and provides XX¥ to your tax revenues.

E. ¥20bil -- Law enforcement -- As your population continues to grow, so too do the demands of your police force. The judicial system is also overwhelmed at times. Your fleet of patrol vehicles is also aging and you are enduring disproportionate upkeept costs due to old fleet vehicle maintenance. You must continue to invest in a qualified law enforcement department in order to combat the latest crimes, evolving methodologies, and resolve displayed by those who would do your citizenry harm, especially as your city continues to attract a heterogenus. A recent domestic terrorism event is worrying to some of your citizens and is having an impact on people's psyche, tourism, and general well being.

OK, Squid, show me the money!

Why do you keep insisting that the money for a mass transit system which decreases traffic congestion and pollution is better spent on other things? Where are you getting this value judgement?

And I am pretty sure there is not another subway system in the world that uses a distance based calculation the way you describe it. Most do as admin described, they divide the system into zones, so that there are many occassions where two people who go different distances still end up paying the same price.

I'm all "eyes" for illogical fallacies you'd like to draw my attention to. ~~ Inqusitively yours

@ Britomart: you're either passionately misread or being cheeky. Trying to lump my posts into the same realm as Squid's is asinine.

Well, I was attempting the latter. Being cheeky, that is. Though there was an element of honest curiosity... I was following the conversation between you two guys, analyzing how many time logical fallacies were used as supporting points.

As to the "passionately misread" comment, I'm not entirely sure if I am or not, since I don't know what that means. Which I suppose is an indication of how "passionately misread" I am...? Or was I passionately misreading? Well, passion was not exactly the emotion that came to mind when reading a discussion of subway fare increases.

And really and truely, please rest assured--I had no intention of lumping your posts with Squid's posts. You guys are clearly nowhere close to being in the same realm.

Yours truly,

Asinine Yet Cheeky

mtnerror,

I understand why you want to dodge the question of how much you want to make the increase for each stop-of course it makes your argument so much more difficult to sustain that it already is.

I don't know what you are talking about lack of responses. You throw ten buckets of mixed paint agaist a wall, and then you ask, which do you like. There is no answer to that mess. Your latest incarnation of rounded off to the nearest yuan hodge podge of words with no continuing theme is another of these paint messes. While you are spilling paint everywhere you seem to have thrown logic completely out the window. Britomart didn't lump your posts in with anything, she asked you a simple question. You answered with Jackson Pollack imitations.

Efficiency of words, I think you should practice that art instead.

I'm just curious... Have either of you ever taken part in debate teams when in high school?

@ Squid: I will answer your question when you answer my questionS (note: plural). So go ahead, answer my questions.

But actually, you don't need to. You want to try and compare BJ to Delhi subway (with a total of 6 lines...hardly a good comparison) so badly. You have shot yourself in the foot countless times with your ill informed rants, and you are at it again. Delhi Metro charges (you need to sit down for this) distance-based fare! If they're indeed not taking subsidies (I don't care to look it up because you have nailed your own coffin), you can credit the Delhi geniuses who decided to charge distance-based fare because guess what, this formula works for an overwhelming majority of cities around the world! You really crack me up with your supposed analogies which only hurt your argument -- which is nothing more than an illogical tirade. You fail to acknowledge much and are increasingly making desperate, emotional pleas to passers-by. It's over, it's done with.

And I'm sorry yet another article mentions Beijing's ultra-cheap flat fare is due to an ungodly subsidy sum. From the looks of your posts, you're attempting to direct your anger in my direction. If that is what makes you feel better. keep it comin'. If something like ¥7 (what Shanghai Metro charges a rider to ride the entire length of Line 1 -- that is 28 stations!) is too much for your to shoulder, if you think it's too grossly unfair, then you probably have a lot of anger built up inside. Or you should go move to Delhi where the CNY will work in your favor.

For you information, the subway system in Delhi India is one of only an estimated FIVE subway systems in the entire world that operate with a profit, with no subsidies. You know how much they charge?

The cheapest fare is less than one yuan, the highest fare is about 2.7 yuan. Forget not getting subsidies, they are actually makng a profit.

Since Beijing subways operate at beyond capacity, its likely that the problem isn't too low of fares, but rather poor management and cost controls. And perhaps not very good book keeping.

I asked you, how much should the cost go up for every station one gets off on?